Forum Discussion

This post is in response to the toon below (click to enlarge)
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (October 24, 2003 2:53 PM)
Posted by: US CITIZEN
I think you are some racist ass mother fuckers who think immigrants come here to take ur jobs when it's them who come here to mow ur lawns and wash ur shitty ass toilets. They do not take ur jobs because an american would never want a job like that. If they took ur jobs that would mean that the immigrants would be working in offices and taking over the President's spot. If u think that way u are wrong you need to live in both sides of the country to understand but unfortunately white people are ignorant.

Re: Cartoon on Proposition 187 (November 3, 2003 6:21 PM)
Posted by: Scott Plunkett
Honestly, who is the racist? White people are ignorant? All immigrants clean our toilets? He never said that they clean our toilets and mow our lawns. I hope you have fun wasting oxygen. Just how far does your ignorance extend you liberal
Re: Cartoon on Proposition 187 (September 30, 2005 6:19 PM)
Posted by: Carla Tellez
honey, would you do that job? Believe me if all immigrants went back to their country, America would look rediculous and Dirty..... I totally agree that white people ARE IGNORANTE AND TOTALLY MEAN!!!!! Immigrants come here for a better life and just because of wanting that so bad, they are treated like crap by all the white people that think they are better than them.Who builds your bridges? Who does all your dirty work? Who constructs under the burning sun? I believe that immigrants are much much harder workers than white people because they had the courage to cross that dangerous border and start a life in a State where everything is so different. Immigrants deserve so much respect because when it comes to who is lower: Immagrants or Americans, the answer is right away Americans because we might clean toilettes but the way Americans treat immagrants puts them waaaaay lower than what immagrants can ever be. Another thing I don't get is that Americans have a HUGE mouth to talk about immagrants and crack idiotic ignorant jokes, yet they still have the nerve to go and spend your summer vacation at cancun or some other spanish country. All I'm asking is that when America falls down and hard and isn't able to get back up, that president Bush and his white/pale people BETTER NOT GO KNOCKING AT MEXICO'S DOOR. I'm 15 years old but I don't give.....I learned from an early age that America and it's preppy stupid suck ups SUCK.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 3, 2006 11:52 AM)
Posted by: Jim Huber
I'm not sure what makes me feels worse... Knowing that there are 15 year olds like this that will grow up to be our leaders one day. Or that 15 year olds are exposed to US CITIZEN's profanities on my site. I think it's time to place a disclaimer on the forum...
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 3, 2006 6:04 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Totally!!! We can not have illegal immigrants breaking the laws. Only Republicans Congresspeople and Presidents can do that!!!
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 5, 2006 11:08 PM)
Posted by: T J
// All I'm asking is that when America falls down and hard and isn't able to get back up, that president Bush and his white/pale people BETTER NOT GO KNOCKING AT MEXICO'S DOOR.//

No worries that this will ever happen Carla, because the reason immigrants come to America illegally is because THEIR GOVERNMENT HAS ALREADY FAILED TO SUPPORT THEM! I may make more money working a desk job than your typical illegal toilet cleaner, but MY TAXES go to pay for these guys to get FREE healthcare and educations while they're here. You'll notice that when you get a REAL job in the REAL WORLD sweetie.

//Only Republicans Congresspeople and Presidents can do that!!! //

Heya GOOT WILL, get a new line, because the words "Democrat" and "Sucky Liberal" work in that sentence just as well.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 9, 2006 4:17 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
>Heya GOOT WILL, get a new line, because the words "Democrat" and "Sucky Liberal" work in that sentence just as well.

I would, but I am too busy trying to follow how many Republicans switched votes for bribes. There goes one...and there is another...
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 9, 2006 7:31 PM)
Posted by: T J
Poor liberals! They keep trying to create a scandal while the public just goes "yawn."

If government weren't involved, then there wouldn't be any opportunity for corruption. When government(Republican or Demoncrap) controls so much wealth and power, people will go after that wealth and power. Legislating to prevent such activity is like dealing with fly infested cowflop piles in a pasture by passing laws to keep the flies off; the flies will go there anyway. As I said before you can replace as many (D) officials in those spots as you have Reps and you'll have the same issue.

What's really bugging the liberals about this deal is that Abramoff DIDN'T rely on them as much because HE knew where the REAL power in Washington is and who the people REALLY favor, thus more money to be banded about.


Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 11, 2006 4:40 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Yup...here is another Congressperson taking bribes....and another....
Wow, I really think they got enough money to build another vacation house far away from people who voted them in to do a honest job.

>As I said before you can replace as many (D) officials in those spots as you have Reps and you'll have the same issue.
Let me translate this:
Waaaaaaaa Waaaaaa Waaaaaa....we did a bad thing, but other people maybe, might have, possibly, potentially done it too.

Hehehe, I saw my neighbor about a week ago scraping W04 sticker from his car, telling me that he is sick an tired of Republican corruption.
I was giddy.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 11, 2006 11:20 PM)
Posted by: T J
//I was giddy.//

Or high on meth and hallucinating....I hear that happens pretty regular with the libs....
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 12, 2006 3:51 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
>Or high on meth and hallucinating....I hear that happens pretty regular with the libs....

Its interesting that you think that every one has the same hobbies as you do yourself
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 16, 2006 1:10 PM)
Posted by: T J
//Its interesting that you think that every one has the same hobbies as you do yourself //

You mean crocheting of baby blankets in wild, far-out colors? Wow! We should get up a blanket circle together... you must be careful though, your inclination towards drugs might make you think the blankies are out to get you. And no nodding off; you know what they say about libs that fall asleep in a cozy warm environment...they might just recant all that retarded philosophy and wake up with a dose of common sense. "OH wow! illegal immagrants are breaking the law? Wow! I never realized that before!"

Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 16, 2006 8:46 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
>they might just recant all that retarded philosophy and wake up with a dose of common sense. "OH wow! illegal immagrants are breaking the law? Wow! I never realized that before!"

As I said: its a horror, only Republican lawmakers are allowed to break laws right?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 16, 2006 11:47 PM)
Posted by: T J
//As I said: its a horror, only Republican lawmakers are allowed to break laws right? //

Only if they get punished for them. Common sense, Sweetie.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 17, 2006 8:43 AM)
Posted by: Good Will
Did not Ford pardon Nixon? Now talk about punishment.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 17, 2006 8:47 AM)
Posted by: T J
//Now talk about punishment//

OOOOO yer gettin' naughty now sweetie! Do you like being paddled while somebody whispers "I am not a crook" in your ear?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 17, 2006 8:58 AM)
Posted by: Good Will
Ok....you are starting to sound like YOU need an intern. Please contact your local university. And remember sex between consensual adults is not a crime!!!
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 17, 2006 12:41 PM)
Posted by: T J
//And remember sex between consensual adults is not a crime!!! //

You keep that on a note card pinned to your shirt when you go out, don't you?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 17, 2006 3:55 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
why?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 24, 2006 8:39 PM)
Posted by: Crazy Pete
Wow, your completely out of your mind!
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 25, 2006 1:53 PM)
Posted by: Bridget Lennon
OMG is this still debating on illegal immegrants or whom is worse than whom? Can't we just discuss these topics like civilized human beings or are you all going to start hurling insults like imature first graders? ( No offense to any first graders out there)

Now let's all be nice and try to have a FACT supported debate on the issue, shall we?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 26, 2006 1:44 PM)
Posted by: Crazy Pete
I didn't think you were new to any of this. Bridget. You get into politics, you'll find this everywhere. You might as well get used to it. (Prepares a fist full of mud)
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 27, 2006 2:59 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
>(Prepares a fist full of mud)
You guys are good at it! Villify, villify, villify!!! Muddy up, muddy up, muddy up!!!

>Now let's all be nice and try to have a FACT supported debate on the issue, shall we?
We are on the issue of law breaking, right? And not getting punished for it but instead rewarded.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 31, 2006 1:41 PM)
Posted by: Crazy Pete
Hey, both sides are good at mud slinging! Don't even deny it Goody. You mind if I call you Goody? Hope not. Your hypersensitive to that sort of thing so, I thought I would ask.

Everybody knows, that politics is a mud slinging sport, and nobody on either side is innocent of it. ADMIT IT! hehehehe, thats why I love this sport!
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 31, 2006 6:11 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
>Everybody knows, that politics is a mud slinging sport
Reminds you of kindergarden I see :) Have not grown out of that yet? So who are you villifying today?

Cartoon on Proposition 187 (January 31, 2006 6:15 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Ya see my response was based on preemptive doctorine (remember that one?) I knew you were going to mangle my nickname next.

So as I was saying.

>you mind if I call you Goody
Do you mind staying respectful? You do not see me naming you Pity or something. Seriously, TJ can not seem to type up the word Good, and you seem to like calling people you do not know by cutsey names. Having a debate does not imply having person attacks.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 2, 2006 1:08 PM)
Posted by: Crazy Pete
You didn't answer my question, do you mind if I call you Goody? It's a yes or no question.

I don't know who I am vilifying today, there is always a place for my big mouth to go. (Yes, I do have a big mouth. I guess everybody already knows that)

Everybody gets picked on, I make my rounds. You have been a good contender, mainly because its so easy to rattle your cage. I gotta admit, I like ya Goody. Keep getting worked up, your giving me something to look forward to in the morning.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 3, 2006 4:18 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
>you mind if I call you Goody
Yes. I mind. And I wonder why you have to assign cutsey names to people.

>mainly because its so easy to rattle your cage.
It does rattle me, I simply enjoy a good debate :)
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 7, 2006 1:38 PM)
Posted by: Crazy Pete
Okay, Good Will, you get your name, I'll stop heckling you over that.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 8, 2006 1:39 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Wooohooo!!! I get my own name!!!
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 8, 2006 8:45 PM)
Posted by: Ben Sebaugh
I think that people's opinion on the illegal immigrant problem we have in this country tends to reflect, largley, among other factors, on where they live. I did say that it was a problem. We have used migrant laborers for agricultural purposes for a very long time, and it was a beneficial relationship and in my opinion, still is. However, the recent explosion of traffic crossing the border, and the seizures of the individual rights that the State governments need to be able to exercise, in order to enforce the immigration laws that already exist, State rights, that most States haven't seemed to want to exercise in earnest until a minute ago, has compounded a problem that already has breached the point where reversal of policy. In other words, enforcing the law, is impractical and, lets face it, not going to happen. Some places are not as affected as others by this road being paved into our society. Yet.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 8, 2006 8:53 PM)
Posted by: Ben Sebaugh
What do you guys think about the deal in California where companies who employ illegals must have worker's compensation insurance on them?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 9, 2006 1:29 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Here is a shocker for you: While I still think they are bunch of renegades and some of them are racists, I can see, understand and somewhat relate to why Minuteman project is up and about.

>What do you guys think about the deal in California where companies who employ illegals must have worker's compensation insurance on them?
I feel for the worker. At least that guy is busting his ass to put food on his family table. That said companies who hire illegals nshoudl get in a lot more trouble.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 10, 2006 4:35 PM)
Posted by: Ben Sebaugh
"Family values do not stop at the border." I believe that's what the President said in the State of the Union Address. That's great, I personally think we could learn a thing or two about family values from Mexican culture. Unfortunatly, these past few years, if family values are being stopped at the border they must be about the only thing being stopped.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 10, 2006 8:08 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
> "Family values do not stop at the border." I believe that's what the President said in the State of the Union Address.
Is this the same president who wants guess worker programs for illegals. Or refuses to give money to border guards?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 10, 2006 9:55 PM)
Posted by: Ben Sebaugh
We have to have a guest worker program so we can keep track of them, and we NEED them for agricultural purposes. We have needed them for ag. purposes for a long time, but things have gotten out of control. As I said earlier, it's a matter of mutual benefit between our countries.
I can't take sides with the round em up and take em out in the desert and turn em loose crowd. This problem has been building for a long time. No pun intended, the constuction boom will slow down and we already have U.S. citizen workers in that industry that have been hurt by artificially low wages. Many of the people who worked in contruction, roofers, drywall,framing, masons, whatever, got their own crews (illegals), and hung their own shingle out. Making a lot more money than they could working as they had been, hourly- doing the work themselves. The housing boom that is still evident supported all these extra workers, but think about it, it's not free enterprise when you pay wages that are kept low by the importation of alien labor. When the housing market slows down where are all these people going to work? I know, I know, they will find work somewhere, they always do. My contention is that they will not have to. They will still be in construction making squat! The question is where will their former employers find work? What about the people they and their crews put out of business? They're out there, working somewhere, unemployment rates are great. And I'm not trying to get in with the bunch I've heard say "unemployment rates are good because people got tired of looking and gave up." If you can't find a job in this market you need to move! I hear Mexico's nice this time of year. But, people are in debt! Leveraging against their houses, credit cards, student loans, taxes, obscene car payments.
The scam mortgages are the most worrysome though because traditionally the home was the biggest asset a person had.
Back to family values though, Hispanic families that come here can do better on far less than we can. They team up and watch each others children while they take turns working, they live together - fifteen in a house sometimes, they spend less money on food, cooking from scatch most of the time, and they tend to take caring for their parent's when the time comes upon themselves. Not turning them over to the government while they still are able to care for them. This puts most of us at a financial disadvantage, because they still, even living jammed into a house together have a better living than where they came from. Thats why they're here. We won't live like that until we get put in the position of having to. When they can afford to move and get their own place they do. But they keep coming. Will they eventually slow down when the job opportunities do? Will the job market equalize? What about drugs and gangs that move through the open border? What about terrorists getting through? We need a card to go to Mexico now because they want to keep track of us but on this side of the border all we hear about is the "rights" of undocumented workers? Somebody help me understand this.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 10, 2006 10:46 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
I am all for patrolling the border. I am just surprized that a Congress and a President are all for "National Security" are not.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 10, 2006 11:07 PM)
Posted by: Ben Sebaugh
The Border Patrol do the best they can, but it's like trying to run a busy restaurant at 12:00 noon by yourself.
It's a flood. They're going both ways. It's basically an open border. And has been through three presidencies.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 11, 2006 2:23 AM)
Posted by: Good Will
> The Border Patrol do the best they can, but it's like trying to run a busy restaurant at 12:00 noon by yourself.
It's a flood. They're going both ways. It's basically an open border. And has been through three presidencies.

Excuses! A president who really wants to have National Security woudl not have cut, yes I repeat!!! CUT funding to the border patrol.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 11, 2006 10:53 AM)
Posted by: Ben Sebaugh
It was a cut in an increase, show me where he reduced overall spending for the Border Patrol and i'll let you call it a cut. The border security issue has been around for a while, it just recently became a GLARING problem. You see nobody has wanted to touch the issue because, up until now, when they do the left screams RACIST. Remember Pat Bucannon.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 11, 2006 2:49 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
enjoy:
-- Snip --
At a budget hearing of the House Judiciary subcommittee on immigration, border security and claims, Mr. Bonner said that despite a $3.6 billion increase proposed for Homeland Security for fiscal 2005, the Border Patrol — whose responsibilities include 6,000 miles of international border — is slated for cuts totaling more than $18.3 million.
-- snip --
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040311-113623-8745r.htm
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 11, 2006 3:43 PM)
Posted by: Ben Sebaugh
Big Increase for Border Patrol
Although disappointed by the lack of reimbursement for jailing illegal immigrants, Palmer said Schwarzenegger's administration was pleased with Bush's proposal to beef up border security, including $30 million to complete a system of fencing, vehicle barriers and patrol roads along the San Diego border.
http://www.latimes.com/
In Bush's budget proposal, federal spending would increase by at least $61 billion, or 2.25 percent, over this year. The administration also plans to seek $120 billion to pay for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, pushing the federal deficit to $423 billion if the budget wins congressional approval.

Still, Bush asked for significantly more money for border security and immigration enforcement agencies, part of the Department of Homeland Security. The president said he wants to gain control of the U.S.-Mexican border and cut down on illegal immigration and the hiring of undocumented workers.

The proposal would add muscle, in the form of money, to recent policy statements by Bush and other officials.

But lawmakers and others said money alone won't stop illegal immigration. Even Bush's allies said the funds in the proposed budget wasn't a solution.
http://www.azcentral.com/
A 9.8 Percent Increase over FY 2006

(02/07/2006)President Bush’s Fiscal Year (FY) 2007 budget recognizes that securing America’s borders is a top priority. Accordingly, the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) budget request for FY 2007 represents an increase of $702.31 million (+9.83%) over
FY 2006. During FY 2007 budget, CBP’s budget reflects $6.57 billion in appropriated resources and $1.27 billion in funding acquired through user fees, for a total of $7.84 billion.
http://www.customs.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/fact_sheets/bush_2007_budget.xml

If you have all day, you can find news articles that say anything.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 11, 2006 4:56 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Yeah I red his disaster of a budget before.

I am betting if not for Minuteman project giving this publicity this would never come to pass.

It still bears to ask why Bush cut the funding in first place. Why woudl a President who says he is all for security cut it in the first place?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 16, 2006 4:33 PM)
Posted by: Anthony Zarrella
I agree with the need for better border patrols, and with the fact that politicians are not above the law (and Nixon *should* have gone down, I agree - he was a disgrace to the ideals of his own party [please, Good Will, don't make this into an argument about what those ideals are or are not]). However, none of this is relevant to the actual *topic*.

The topic is illegal immigration. I'll even grant Carla and US's assertions that immigrants come here to better their lives *and* that they do jobs most Americans don't want. This explains why we should be tolerant to immigrants, and as a third-generation Italian whose grandparents and great-grandparents worked damn hard for their place in this country, I fully agree, and I deplore any discrimination against immigrants.

This utterly fails to address why we should be tolerant of *illegal* immigrants. Yes, immigration is a good deal of paperwork, to say nothing of permanent residency or citizenship. That the law is inconvenient is not an excuse to duck the law. Furthermore, even if we were to agree that illegals should not be arrested and deported (a premise I do *not* in fact grant), their unregistered status means that they pay no taxes. Why should I and other legitimate taxpayers pay for the healthcare and other social programs of people who don't pay a dime themselves?

Do *not* give the standard argument in favor of social programs. I didn't *say* "Why should I pay for someone else's healthcare?" and I'm not opposing the *principle* of Medicare/Medicaid or something like that. I'm saying that it should be restricted to taxpaying, documented, legal residents of the country. Government is a contract between the government and the governed (see Hobbes, Locke, and others). The government owes its benefits only to those who subject themselves to its laws (there is a distinction between "subject oneself to" and "obey", I admit). Illegal immigrants don't hold up their end of the contract, because they live wholly outside the laws and obligations of citizenship. Therefore they are owed nothing by the government.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 16, 2006 11:55 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Actualy if you look at the cartoon the topic talk about law being broken and rewards are given inspite/or for that.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 17, 2006 1:57 AM)
Posted by: Anthony Zarrella
Yes, but it was very specifically in terms of illegal immigration, not a free-for-all on anything related to lawbreakers.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 17, 2006 12:04 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Well I think the irony expressed in the cartoon is that people get benefits for breaking laws. At least I saw it a little more broader.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 17, 2006 1:02 PM)
Posted by: Anthony Zarrella
OK, whatever... I have no objection to that, but my claim about what the topic was only made up one half-line in my post... I really don't think the assertion that the topic is in fact broader invalidates any part of the rest of my post.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 17, 2006 1:12 PM)
Posted by: Patricia Gruffs
"Actualy if you look at the cartoon the topic talk about law being broken and rewards are given inspite/or for that. "

Actually if I look at that cartoon, it shows some guy illegally sneaking into the US, thus this is a cartoon MAKING A POINT about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, that point being that even if they are breaking the law they get to use our tax money for medical and educational services, a side issue of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, which this cartoon is about ACTUALLY!!


Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 17, 2006 2:55 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Patricia; So is this the only way to look it? Or may there be other interpretations?

Anthony:
Actually, I pretty much agree with you on the illegal immigration. It is a real tricky issue though. In theory we all know what to do. In practice, its a real gray area.
For example if an illegal immigrant, a man of 25 comes for medical attention, one might say we shoudl not give it him, cause we did not ask them to come here. Thats a relatively clearcut decision.
However if a child (a lets say a girl of 5) of an illegal immigrant is brought in for medical attention, should we punish the child who had no say in coming her for teh transgresions of her parents.

As I said I understand why the Minuteman do what they do. I still think they are a bunch of potentially racist vigillantes but I can understand their reasons. They are populists who are picking up slack where both Democrats and Republicans are ducking teh subject.

But when we argue about National Security and this current administration I say:
It still bears to ask why Bush cut the funding in first place. Why woudl a President who says he is all for security cut it in the first place?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 17, 2006 4:07 PM)
Posted by: Patricia Gruffs
"Patricia; So is this the only way to look it? Or may there be other interpretations?"

What are you? Freaking Monet'? Picasso? Gonna go cut off your ear to prove your point?? There's a guy sneaking over our border. How hard is that to see?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 18, 2006 4:44 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Heehehe, do you think everyone is as narrow minded as you?
You see it one way and that is the only way to see it, eh?

>What are you? Freaking Monet'?
Wait who are you insulting here? Me or Picasso?

>Gonna go cut off your ear to prove your point?
Why would I cut off my ear? I am not Picasso, or do you not see that either?

You take a guy,
You villify...
98 unvillified guys on the wall :)
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 18, 2006 8:24 PM)
Posted by: Patricia Gruffs
"Heehehe, do you think everyone is as narrow minded as you?"

I can come up with more than one word to make my argument. Rewarding illegal immigration is wasteful, dangerous, uneconomical, nonsensical, absurd, ridiculous, irresponsible, foolish, illogical, reckless, unconscionable, imprudent, and draining on our nations tax payers.

Your problem is you want to change the point that cartoon makes, so you can bitch off-topic, something I noticed you complain about quite often, yet you have to make it about something else so you actually HAVE something to bitch about.

You're the type of person that would put a turd in a jar of urine and call it art.

Yikes!! I've earned another "vilification" rant.

Quit being banal, Will, and buy yourself a thesaurus.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 19, 2006 5:34 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
>buy yourself a thesaurus.
Can not. All my money are going into taxes so I can pay for taxcuts for the rich and the war in Iraq.

>You're the type of person that would put a turd in a jar of urine and call it art.
You know just because you do it, it really DOES NOT mean other do it too.

>I can come up with more than one word to make my argument.
What argument. So far you made blatant statements and said things that were litterally not true.

You take a guy,
You villify...
97 unvillified guys on the wall :)
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 19, 2006 8:05 PM)
Posted by: Patricia Gruffs
"You know just because you do it, it really DOES NOT mean other do it too."

Back to third grade, Will? "I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I? I'M RUBBER YER GLUE, BOUNCES OFF ME AND STICKS TO YOU, GIGGLE GIGGLE"

Here let me explain proper, grown up English for you, since you are having such an issue. "Blatant" means absolute, blunt, categorical, certain, clear, complete, explicit, flat, honest, indubitable, open, out-and-out, outright, plain, positive, simple, sincere, straight, straightforward, sure, thoroughgoing, total, undisguised, unequivocal, unmitigated, unqualified, unquestionable, up front, utter, whole. A statement I did, in fact, make about rewarding illegal immigration. So, yeah, you're right, I made a blatant statement about this topic. Then you go back and say it was not true. Do *you* even know what you're talking about, dumbass?

Rewarding illegal immigration IS wasteful, because people die to get here, children and women, because some butthead coyote wants to make a buck, these people get packed shoulder to shoulder in sealed truck compartments, where they suffocate,or trek across burning deserts, or raging rivers because they are tempted with things like free healthcare and higher wages. It's dangerous for those reasons, but also because drug dealers use these desperate folks to carry their poisons inside their bodies(they're called mules), and if the drug container somehow breaks, well then the mule dies, the drug dealer will find someone else, because someone else wants to suck off the great American teat. This sounds pretty illogical and reckless to me as well as unconscionable, foolish, and imprudent...all for a little greenback or healthcare provided by the great American taxpayer. ARE YOU GETTING HOW RETARDED REWARDING ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS YET, WILL??? IT DOESN'T HELP ANYBODY!!! Everybody pays!! And that's what that cartoon is about, you moron.

I think *THAT* one will get me 15 vilified guys.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 19, 2006 11:29 PM)
Posted by: Anthony Zarrella
//For example if an illegal immigrant, a man of 25 comes for medical attention, one might say we shoudl not give it him, cause we did not ask them to come here. Thats a relatively clearcut decision.
However if a child (a lets say a girl of 5) of an illegal immigrant is brought in for medical attention, should we punish the child who had no say in coming her for teh transgresions of her parents.//

I very much take your point. However, I actually don't support *denying* life-saving care to *anyone*, even if they're illegal or can't pay. I support performing the life-saving treatment, and then penalizing the free-rider after he's discharged. In the case of the 5-year-old girl, this would mean penalizing the parents, so it's just as clear-cut as the 25-year-old. Nevertheless, I agree that there are some tricky issues to tackle. My best idea I can come up with is simply that you deny any benefits (including the right to get a job or maintain a residence) to the illegals, *but* when you catch them, instead of simply arresting them and deporting them, you give them an option - register *right now* for whatever status you want (visa, permanent residency, whatever) and consequently also start paying your dues, *or* be deported. That way, you don't deny them their chance in this "land of opportunity", you simply force them to live by the law of the land *or* get out.

//It still bears to ask why Bush cut the funding in first place. Why would a President who says he is all for security cut it in the first place?//

To be honest, I'm not really sure... It doesn't make much sense to me either. Then again, we have Lake Champlain, which is the longest stretch of unguarded border in any "First World" nation... that baffles me too. (Not trying to make an argument there... just pointing out an oddity, which in no way makes the initial question any less baffling)

Don't get me wrong - I don't think Bush is the Second Coming, and I admit there are some things he does that I either disagree with or just don't understand.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 22, 2006 1:53 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Anthony, I happen to agree with prety much everything with what you just said.
Let me muse a little though:
There are interesting tricks to it. An illegal immigrant for example has no SSN. So no credit ratings for them (at least nt under current system). I bet creating creditors jails would not help either, since placing the parents in such prison would not help either the child, nor taxpayers. Something like this needs to be well thought out. That of course assumes that eitehr politicians got to get off their asses or grass roots got to push. Which is why I said I understand why they are there, though I personally am sure a lot of them are dumbass (and maybe racist) vigillantes.

>To be honest, I'm not really sure... It doesn't make much sense to me either. Then again, we have Lake Champlain, which is the longest stretch of unguarded border in any "First World" nation... that baffles me too. (Not trying to make an argument there... just pointing out an oddity, which in no way makes the initial question any less baffling)

To me personally it spells that he does not care about border security for one reason or other and thats nto somethign I want in a president. I mean we spent billions on "organizing" teh bureaucrats in Department of Homeland Security. Not barely a dime on actual border security. Now you may disagree with me. But I mainly judge a man or a woman on his actions, not his words. His words say security, his actions say, do not care about it.

Patricia:
>Here let me explain proper, grown up English for you, since you are having such an issue. "Blatant" means absolute, blunt,
Awwww....you found a thresaurus. Yay!!!!

Patricia, Patricia:
>I think *THAT* one will get me 15 vilified guys.
Ok so after recognizing the problem the next step is acceptance that is a problem. I am sure you can do.
Repeat after me:
Debating does not require vilifications, smears and personal attacks. It requires thought, consideration and analytical thinking.
Come on...you can do it. Goooo Patricia....

>Rewarding illegal immigration IS wasteful, because people die to get here, children and women, because some butthead coyote wants to make a buck, these people get packed shoulder to shoulder in sealed truck compartments, where they suffocate,or trek across burning deserts, or raging rivers because they are tempted with things like free healthcare and higher wages.

You think thats a disgraceful way to find happiness and a decent life?
What are you comparing it too? Waddling over here in big boats, because you want religious freedom and new opportunities for better life. Then, after being helped by Native Americans in your survival (remember Thanksgiving) , massacring them and forcing them to reservations, so you can later live here? (please note, when I say "you/your" I am NOT refering to you personally, Patricia, so do not get al riled up.)
You (Patricia) think thats a lot more noble?
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 22, 2006 1:54 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
Which is why I said I understand why they are there, though I personally am sure a lot of them are dumbass (and maybe racist) vigillantes.

I meant the Minuteman people.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 22, 2006 3:38 PM)
Posted by: Anthony Zarrella
//There are interesting tricks to it. An illegal immigrant for example has no SSN. So no credit ratings for them (at least nt under current system). I bet creating creditors jails would not help either, since placing the parents in such prison would not help either the child, nor taxpayers.//

Oh, I had no intention of putting them in jail. I meant they either pay up (and register immediately) or as soon as they/their kids are better, they get deported. It sounds harsh, but the alternative is to say that anyone who manages to cross the border is inalienably entitled to all our freedoms and rights and benefits without being in any way forced to live by our rules.

Oh, and I don't think Patricia was saying their methods of immigration are disgraceful to the immigrants (though I could be wrong). I think she was saying that it's disgraceful the way the desperation of these immigrants is exploited by heartless bastards in their own country who screw them over. It sounded like the outrage was against the *effects upon* the immigrants, not against the immigrants for allowing themselves to be exploited.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 22, 2006 5:34 PM)
Posted by: Good Will
>Oh, I had no intention of putting them in jail. I meant they either pay up (and register immediately) or as soon as they/their kids are better, they get deported. It sounds harsh, but the alternative is to say that anyone who manages to cross the border is inalienably entitled to all our freedoms and rights and benefits without being in any way forced to live by our rules.

yeah this needs to be thought out. Currently neither Dems nor Reps are up for it. Dumbasses :)

>Oh, and I don't think Patricia was saying their methods of immigration are disgraceful to the immigrants
She tends to be insulting and factually wrong. Somehow I think she meant that teh immigrants are disgraceful. Maybe I am wrong, but given her past post, you could see why I think she is being mean.
Cartoon on Proposition 187 (February 22, 2006 10:20 PM)
Posted by: Anthony Zarrella
//yeah this needs to be thought out. Currently neither Dems nor Reps are up for it. Dumbasses :)//

Agreed :-P I like the GOP, and 9 times of 10 I'll vote GOP, but I'll readily admit that there are some issues that *both* parties have their heads up their asses about. Dems (the politicians I mean, not all Dems) seem to think that illegal immigrants basically *should* be treated just like citizens, and Republicans just can't be bothered to do enough to stop them (them = illegals... the GOP *always* has time to stop Dems :-p).

//Maybe I am wrong, but given her past post, you could see why I think she is being mean.//

Yeah, I can see why you'd make that assumption. You may even be right. I was just trying to give a potential alternate interpretation (and one that I can agree with, at that).

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