Forum Discussion

>I think that's hilarious! The sad thing is that
>it's too true. I have talked to people like
>that. Nice title. On the "Christmas
>Holiday" way to stay politically correct!
>Keep it up.

I agree!! LOL^_^
What is even sadder is the fact that people are now stealing the baby Jesus from church Nativity scenes.
Only an inhumane Ebenezzer Scrouge type person would try to ruin everyone else's Christmas.(there I said CHRISTMAS
not HOLIDAY). But to all you nice people on this forum and to Jim Huber,please have a very Merry Christmas!

You know whats interesting. That Christmas, a Christian holiday, is a federal HOLIDAY. Do not see that for Rosh-a-shana (the jewish new year). So for people who are not Christians celebrate that day off as a HOLIDAY!!! That said, I as a liberal will be out tehre with a bibi gun shooting down everyting that has the words "Christmas" on itm, just so you can feel safe in your belief that there is a "War on Christmas"

Nice practice of gun control there "Goot Will" shooting up inanimate objects is a real benevolent display of the "Tolerance" you libs are always touting. Please do keep it up and remember to get caught so we can show you off in front of the cameras....

Sure thing. Anything to keep your delusions going.

P.S. I do not know that you should be pidgeon hole everyone with an opposite opinion as a liberal. I happen to be pro-guns.

>P.S. I do not know that you should be pidgeon
>hole everyone with an opposite opinion as a
>liberal. I happen to be pro-guns.

And are the Baby Jesus and Santa Claus on your list as targets as well? Like I said, I hope they catch you on camera, or will you be hiding in the trunk of 1990 Chevy Caprice with an XM-15, John Allen Muhammad?

ah yes the christmas spirit

So, why does Christmas get such special treatment? I have no issues with people ssaying, but when it appears in schools and in public places, it's endorsement of one religion over another. While I recognize that Christians are the majority in this nation, we've got a long history of not letting the majority run roughshod over minorities; which is why black people don't ride in the back of the bus anymore. So, I ask again: what makes Christmas so much more important that it warrants more national attention than any other winter holiday?

There can be no doubt that this country is and has always been a christian nation. All one has to do is read some history, take a tour of DC and visit any of the monuments just to name a few. I am sure others can site plenty of other proof.

So why don't you just declare Christianity the state religion and fire up the ol' burning stake again? Have a crusade, invite the grandkids.

//So why don't you just declare Christianity the state religion and fire up the ol' burning stake again? Have a crusade, invite the grandkids. //

Sorry that's a MUSLIM stance. The Christians nowdays just leave that burning business to GOD like He told them to.

Emphasis on "nowadays," I presume. Nonetheless, I find it interesting that you consider this a "Christian Nation" when the founders went to great lengths to keep the establishment of religion out of our government and to accept and welcome people of all faiths and creeds.

//when the founders went to great lengths to keep the establishment of religion out of our government //

That makes no sense, especially when you think that every aspect of our government has some element related to the recognition of GOD. Our money says "In God We Trust". When you swear to tell the truth in court you swear on a Bible and say "So help me GOD." When you take up a Government elected job you swear by GOD to do your job, our pledge of allegience says "One Nation under GOD".

As intellegent as you profess to be you really left yourself open in your statement for valid rebuttal.

First, "God" references have largely been added over the years (the addition of "under God" to the POA in 1954 for example), and not neccessarily at the founding. Second, all you've established is "a firm reliance on divine providence" (Declaration of Independence), an ideal NOT exlusive to Christianity. Based on your argument you could just as easily claim that the US is a Jewish nation.

//Based on your argument you could just as easily claim that the US is a Jewish nation. //

They all dumped God and moved to Hollywood where they sit around and hate themselves.

...whoa. Nice change of subject. Actually, I thought they moved to Israel, that place you're rooting for in the middle east?

//Actually, I thought they moved to Israel, that place you're rooting for in the middle east? //

Nope, the ones that STILL believe in God moved to Israel, and yeah, I have complete faith and confidence that they will blow Iran's collection of Iraqi WMD materials off the planet when the crazyIranian leader pops his cork in the threats to use them.

As we know the "firm reliance on divine providence" is just your denial of the fact our founding fathers were Christian men who knew as Isreal knows that we could never have become nations without the intervening hand of God, so you can just take your vague-loving self and join the haters in Hollywood, sweetie. <smoochies>

Are you crazy? I hate LA.
And, actually, Israel became a nation thanks to the hand of the U.N.

//And, actually, Israel became a nation thanks to the hand of the U.N. //

LOL! Oh HELL NO! Now THAT is the biggest load of hogwash you have written yet. The UN totally abandoned Israel after defining the boundaries, (just enough to tell the Arabs where to attack)REMEMBER the Seven day war?!? Israel was getting pounded by Arabs on EVERY side. It wasn't until actual DIVINE intervention that caused the Egyptian troops to get out of their tanks and RUN that Israel even had a chance. The UN's only contribution was an grudging acceptance of Israel's victory and ever since the UN has been barraging them constantly with inane politics. Don't even tell me the UN has any good use in the world at all. Their "intervention" causes more conflict than anything we could *ever* do in Iraq. Africa is in continous turmoil and poverty because of the UN and their "warlord" politics. You can't spell UNETHICAL without the UN.

//REMEMBER the Seven day war?!? //

Oops, I mean Six Day war...I was counting the Ram horn blowing day...and the UN still sucks!

Tj, you really need to read up on Israel history. When 6 day war occured Israel alread had been a country for a while. With cities, VERY effective military and an industrial base.

>You can't spell UNETHICAL without the UN.
Sure we can: Republican, Abramoff, Tom DeLay, Bob Ney...and so and so on...

//...and so and so on... // Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, wow! you're right I see how that works now....Well done Goot Will, and I'm sure you had a fine time shooting up Baby Jesus's this holiday season?

//...and so and so on... // Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, wow! you're right I see how that works now....Well done Goot Will, and I'm sure you had a fine time shooting up Baby Jesus's this holiday season?

>Well done Goot Will
D key on your keyboard is broken?
And thank you.

>shooting up Baby Jesus's this holiday season?
Easter Bunny is next.

As I was saying:
UNETHICAL: Bob Ney, Blunt, Duke Cunningham

//D key on your keyboard is broken?//

Hmmm, nope Goot Will, that is a speech inflection that I attribute solely for you, you special man, you.

//Easter Bunny is next.//

He'll be at the mall first weekend of March, don't forget to wear your "Howard Dean Rocks!" T-shirt as you reek havoc, you silly liberal sweetie.

>Hmmm, nope Goot Will, that is a speech inflection that I attribute solely for you, you special man, you.

Awww...all that for me? Maybe a book on ABC's would not be amiss for you.

>don't forget to wear your "Howard Dean Rocks!"
I'd preffer to wear: "I like presidents who do not break laws and senators who do not cry and give up their liberties when terrorists attack"

//I'd preffer to wear: "I like presidents who do not break laws and senators who do not cry and give up their liberties when terrorists attack" //

So you don't like Clinton or Durbin? What a shining ray of hope you are.

//Maybe a book on ABC's would not be amiss for you.//

It's a sweet offer of you to loan me yours, but I wouldn't want to deprive you of your lesson material, precious.

>So you don't like Clinton or Durbin? What a shining ray of hope you are.

Durbin? No I am pretty sure it was Republican Senator Cornyn who said: "Civil liberties do not matter when you are dead"

And no I do not like Clinton. I just like him more then Bush.
See you "think" that I am a liberal and hence that I "like" Clinton.

//See you "think" that I am a liberal and hence that I "like" Clinton.//

I "think" you're just the most precious sweetest thing, Goot.

I "know" that you are a sad pitiful lib that is ridiculously inclined to be gullible in regards to the leftwing media spin and it's just making you a bit too dizzy.

Just trying to help you off the carousel, sweetie. <snootchies!>

Congrats on yet another wonderfull off-topic personal attack!!!!

As I was saying: Durbin? No I am pretty sure it was Republican Senator Cornyn who said: "Civil liberties do not matter when you are dead"

>I "know" that you are a sad pitiful lib that is ridiculously inclined to be gullible in regards to the leftwing media spin and it's just making you a bit too dizzy.

He we can not all listen to Fox News and regurgitate their right wing talking points :) Some of got to listen and read and watch many different news sources.

//regurgitate their right wing talking points //

OOOO Goot, you used a BIG word!! WOW! Somebody get this little man a gold star!!!

But the fact is I don't have cable, hon, I have to get all my right wing talking points off the internet. I hear the blogs are doing a REAL fine job of keeping that left wing rhetoric laden media on their toes.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5163

Isn't Accountability fun??

"The core of the American people has manifested itself most purely in blogs because elites for so long controlled all avenues of communication. Those days are over now." Tammy Bruce, Pajamas Media

TJ, you found the "fountain of youth"? Every next post you talk like you are getting younger and younger...now baby talk...what are you hitting 2 years old now?

//Every next post you talk like you are getting younger and younger...now baby talk...what are you hitting 2 years old now? //

Why? Does it get you randy? Does it make you excited, Sweetie? I'm just trying to stay on a level of intelligence you can relate to, Goot, honey.

>Pajamas Media
Unlike most bloggers Pajama Media is EXTREMELY well funded by venture capitalists. There about as grass root as an apple hanging from the tree.

aww yes, the lovely sound of debate in action.

I think that it is disturbing, that left wingers mock anyone who has the temerity to exhibit sympathy. NO NO. Let me rephrase that, to express the opinion that Israel should not be destroyed by their enemies in the middle east. I am not Jewish. I really don't have a dog in the fight, but I would be truly grateful to anyone who can explain to me how this can be. That is, other than the obvious explanation. Apparently if right wingers support Israel, then a good left winger is going to take up the fight for Palestine, Syria, Iran, ahh, what the hell, why limit it to established nations? How about the individual groups themselves. We now have movies we can go watch that question the simple dismissal of suicide bomber's as evil. We are encouraged to look at things from their perspective. I wish that these "open minded" Americans could get a plane ticket and get over there, and see the people that they are so eager to defend, against the unfair christian "crusaders" whos' predudice and closed minded far right, EXTREMISTS' views have prevented the real americans from their Darwin given right to a wonderful life under a perfect MARXIST society.

>good left winger is going to take up the fight for Palestine, Syria, Iran, ahh, what the hell, why limit it to established nations
Woooohoooo for great generalization of millions of people. Do they have horns and a tail too? How can you speak for all of them?

I wasn't trying to speak for anyone. What I was trying to get was a logical explanation from someone who said "Israel, that place you're rooting for in the middle east", as to why people of the leftist's persuasion seem to root for anyone who opposes Israels existence. Is it because they like the underdog? Is it because Israel won the war and claimed additional land afterword, offending your sense of fair play? Is it some kind of anti-semitic feeling? Or is it like I suppose, just a knee jerk reaction stemming from a political debate across the world? I have many liberal friends who cannot answer my question, but seem to repeat the progressive "party line", even to the point of defending the mentally deficient sheep, who strap explosives on and kill and maim young people in a night club who probably much like people their age in this country aren't even that pollitically active. I appoligize if I seemed to lose my cool, but I'm coming across this subject all the time these days, and it doesn't make any sense. Also, if we officially support Israel why do we give Palestine funding? For that matter, why do we give either one of them funding?

By the way, I don't think I would have a very hard time basing the entire argument that these suicide bombers are indeed evil, or whatever you might want to call it, entirely on their choice of targets.

>why people of the leftist's persuasion seem to root for anyone who opposes Israels existence.
I've seen people of rightist persuasion rooting for those who oppose Israel too.

You still seems to be generalizing about millions people again!!! Can not argue points? Wooohooo!!! Lets villify then!!!

//First, "God" references have largely been added over the years (the addition of "under God" to the POA in 1954 for example), and not neccessarily at the founding. Second, all you've established is "a firm reliance on divine providence" (Declaration of Independence), an ideal NOT exlusive to Christianity. Based on your argument you could just as easily claim that the US is a Jewish nation. //

Two things Steven - 1) "Under God" in the Pledge is the *only* one of the God references that was added later. The others are from the first few decades of this country's existence. 2) Yes, you're absolutely right, this does not specify a Christian God. While this admission helps the militant atheists not at all, it is definitely true that Judaism or Islam is equally included. The reasons that Christmas and not Jewish or Muslim holidays is a federal holiday are twofold. First, when it was first established as such, Christianity was pretty much the *only* religion in the country, so since almost the whole country would be taking the day off anyway, it made sense to just make it official. Second, that rationale still holds today - more than half the country is Christian, therefore more than half the country will take Christmas off. There can't be a federal holiday for every religion's holy day simply because that would be too many days, so it makes sense to close businesses specifically on the day that the most people will be celebrating.

Now, I don't pretend that any of this is a legalistic or political justification. I'm merely stating the prudential reasons it came to be. However, I do deplore the attempt by *some* militant atheists (see, Good Will, no generalization) to secularize Christmas as well as everything else in the public sphere.

I have a Jewish friend. Every winter, I wish him a Merry Christmas, and he wishes me a Happy Chanukah (sp?). I gladly accept his wishes, and he accepts mine, and both of us take it in exactly the spirit it's meant. He knows that I'm wishing him the blessings of Christ through His birth (which he takes as a good thing, even though he doesn't believe in Jesus as the Son), and I know that he's wishing me the blessings of God through his own holiday (which I actually do believe in, but don't celebrate the way he does).

>I do deplore the attempt by *some* militant atheists (see, Good Will, no generalization) to secularize Christmas as well as everything else in the public sphere.

Here the thing though. You maybe celebrate it as Christmas, but that day is designate as a federal HOLIDAY :)
So me saying "Happy Holiday(s)" to you during that is not an attempt to securilize it. It more of a reflection that I wish you a happiness on the day that to me is just a holiday :)

>some* militant atheists
Or military christians who want to only christianize it

OK, point well taken. I have no objection to *you* or another non-Christian wishing me a "Happy Holiday(s)". What I object to is a non-Christian getting *upset* if I or another Christian wish *them* "Merry Christmas", or if someone I *know* is a fellow Christian wishes me "Happy Holiday" out of misplaced deference to political correctness. What I object to even more strongly (as it explicitly violates not one, but *two separate clauses* of the First Amendment) is when the Chicago public school district told the students a year or two back that they were not supposed to use the phrase "Merry Christmas" in school (violates free speech *and* freedom of religion). Or when, this winter, a private citizen, in a town with *one* non-Christian resident, was ordered to take down *his own* nativity display because it was displayed "too close" to city land. I think he was next door to the City Hall or something, and the court rationale was that he had to take it down so that those who visited City Hall wouldn't be "forced" to look at it... If, Good Will, you are *not* that kind of liberal, then on this particular issue, I have no quarrel with you.

As for your second point, I disagree with those Christians almost as much as with the militant atheists. No non-Christian should be forced to *actively* acknowledge Christmas - only to accept it when Christians *do* acknowledge it.

>What I object to is a non-Christian getting *upset* if I or another Christian wish *them* "Merry Christmas",
Hey, there are dumbasses everywhere. Personally, I'd wish Merry Christmas to those who want to be wished it (they are usually easy to spot) and Happy Holidays to the rest.

>or if someone I *know* is a fellow Christian wishes me "Happy Holiday" out of misplaced deference to political correctness.
Err...how do you know if they wished it to you out of political correctness? It is sort of a thought pattern. But I think I will leave that one aside, it sounds like more internal Christian politics.

>What I object to even more strongly (as it explicitly violates not one, but *two separate clauses* of the First Amendment) is when the Chicago public school district told the students a year or two back that they were not supposed to use the phrase "Merry Christmas" in school (violates free speech *and* freedom of religion).
Yeah this one seems a little over the top. Personally I think "Merry Christmas" is just an expression of wishing happiness.
Still it kinda raises the question of how much religion related things can be said in public schools. If for example somebody went around saying: "Do what bible says or he will smite you" all the time for a month I'd get annoyed.
The interesting thing is this: Other religions also have traditions which they apply on holidays (for example the Netilat Lulav, during Sukot, traditions, is where you give a person some plants and root, wave it aroudn and say a prayer, takes about 3 minutes). It customary to meet people during that time and offer them to do that. Would it be upsetting if peopel did that in public high school.
It just sounds like one of those live and let situations where both sides shoudl take caution not over do it.
But saying regardless: Happy belated Merry Christmas to you :)

>Or when, this winter, a private citizen, in a town with *one* non-Christian resident, was ordered to take down *his own* nativity display because it was displayed "too close" to city land.
Ok, thats stupid, its not his fault the city hall is plumpted down next to his house. I'd probably say that unless his display is so humongous it tower over everything and blocks the sun or something, he should be able to do it.

>If, Good Will, you are *not* that kind of liberal, then on this particular issue, I have no quarrel with you.
Pidgeon-holing never leads to good. For example, I am a gun supporting kind of "insert political denomition here". So ya see, not all "Liberals" are what you think they are ;-)

You raise very interesting points. I'll leave the first two and the fourth alone, since we don't seem to have any disagreement. I mainly agree with you on you on the third as well, except in what it sounds like is your implicit premise. The "Do what the Bible says or He will smite you" thing *might* be legitimately prohibited, but not because it's obnoxious or annoying - only because it's potentially intimidating. As for the Netilat Lulav thing... I've never heard of it, but as long as you didn't *force* someone to take the root, or refuse to get out of their way until you finished the prayer, then I'd say you can't ban it.

On your last point, I agree... that's why I said "that *kind* of liberal" (emphasis changed). I do my level best not to make any universal assumptions about liberals or anyone else.

>As for the Netilat Lulav thing... I've never heard of it, but as long as you didn't *force* someone to take the root, or refuse to get out of their way until you finished the prayer, then I'd say you can't ban it.

it a jewish thing my friend does.
The point I was making is that they come up to you when you walk by and offer to do it. Sorta like when someone walks by and wishes Merry Christmas. Jews tends to keep their traditions to themselves (have not really seen one that prostelatizes), so its nto a big issue, I just wonder what would happen if they offered to do this to passing by Christians in public schools.
On the whole I think both you and I are not on the fringes of over seculirizing or religionizing (not a word I know) of this issue. To me its a non issue cause I personally do not care what you wish me, as long as its hopefully nice. I still think that is a rather gray area. Anyhow..this seems to be resolved :-P I dare say.

I think I agree. We don't seem to have any real dispute here, so we can shake hands (figuratively) and be proud of finding common ground.

Somewhre out there a devil is freezing.

In a Hell that is open and inclusive to all faiths and lack thereof ;-)